Interviewer: David Greene
*This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Aji Fama Jobe is a digital creator, IT consultant, blogger, and tech community leader from The Gambia. She helps run Women TechMakers Banjul, an organization that provides visibility, mentorship, and resources to women and girls in tech. She also serves as an Information Technology Assistant with the World Bank Group where she focuses on resolving IT issues and enhancing digital infrastructure. Aji Fama is a dedicated advocate working to leverage technology to enhance the lives and opportunities of women and girls in Gambia and across Africa.
Greene: Why don’t you start off by introducing yourself?
My name is Aji Fama Jobe. I’m from Gambia and I run an organization called Women TechMakers Banjul that provides resources to women and girls in Gambia, particularly in the Greater Banjul area. I also work with other organizations that focus on STEM and digital literacy and aim to impact more regions and more people in the world. Gambia is made up of six different regions and we have host organizations in each region. So we go to train young people, especially women, in those communities on digital literacy. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past four or five years.
Greene: So this series focuses on freedom of expression. What does freedom of expression mean to you personally?
For me it means being able to express myself without being judged. Because most of the time—and especially on the internet because of a lot of cyber bullying—I tend to think a lot before posting something. It’s all about, what will other people think? Will there be backlash? And I just want to speak freely. So for me it means to speak freely without being judged.
Greene: Do you feel like free speech means different things for women in the Gambia than for men? And how do you see this play out in the work that you do?
In the Gambia we have freedom of expression, the laws are there, but the culture is the opposite of the laws. Society still frowns on women who speak out, not just in the workspace but even in homes. Sometimes men say a woman shouldn’t speak loud or there’s a certain way women should express. It’s the culture itself that makes women not speak up in certain situations. In our culture it’s widely accepted that you let the man or the head of the family—who’s normally a man, of course—speak. I feel like freedom of speech is really important when it comes to the work we do. Because women should be able to speak freely. And when you speak freely it gives you that confidence that you can do something. So it’s a larger issue. What our organization does on free speech is address the unconscious bias in the tech space that impacts working women. I work as an IT consultant and sometimes when we’re trying to do something technical people always assume IT specialists are men. So sometimes we just want to speak up and say, “It’s IT woman, not IT guy.”
Greene: We could say that maybe socially we need to figure this out, but now let me ask you this. Do you think the government has a role in regulating online speech?
Those in charge of policy enforcement don’t understand how to navigate these online pieces. It’s not just about putting the policies in place. They need to train people how to navigate this thing or how to update these policies in specific situations. It’s not just about what the culture says. The policy is the policy and people should follow the rules, not just as civilians but also as policy enforcers and law enforcement. They need to follow the rules, too.
Greene: What about the big companies that run these platforms? What’s their role in regulating online speech?
With cyber-bullying I feel like the big companies need to play a bigger role in trying to bring down content sometimes. Take Facebook for example. They don’t have many people that work in Africa and understand Africa with its complexities and its different languages. For instance, in the Gambia we have 2.4 million people but six or seven languages. On the internet people use local languages to do certain things. So it’s hard to moderate on the platform’s end, but also they need to do more work.
Greene: So six local languages in the Gambia? Do you feel there’s any platform that has the capability to moderate that?
In the Gambia? No. We have some civil society that tries to report content, but it’s just civil society and most of them do it on a voluntary basis, so it’s not that strong. The only thing you can do is report it to Facebook. But Facebook has bigger countries and bigger issues to deal with, and you end up waiting in a lineup of those issues and then the damage has already been done.
Greene: Okay, let’s shift gears. Do you consider the current government of the Gambia to be democratic?
I think it is pretty democratic because you can speak freely after 2016 unlike with our last president. I was born in an era when people were not able to speak up. So I can only compare the last regime and the current one. I think now it’s more democratic because people are able to speak out online. I can remember back before the elections of 2016 that if you said certain things online you had to move out of the country. Before 2016 people who were abroad would not come back to Gambia for fear of facing reprisal for content they had posted online. Since 2016 we have seen people we hadn’t seen for like ten or fifteen years. They were finally able to come back.
Greene: So you lived in the country under a non-democratic regime with the prior administration. Do you have any personal stories you could tell about life before 2016 and feeling like you were censored? Or having to go outside of the country to write something?
Technically it was a democracy but the fact was you couldn’t speak freely. What you said could get you in trouble—I don’t consider that a democracy.
During the last regime I was in high school. One thing I realized was that there were certain political things teachers wouldn’t discuss because they had to protect themselves. At some point I realized things changed because before 2016 we didn’t say the president’s name. We would give him nicknames, but the moment the guy left power we felt free to say his name directly. I experienced censorship from not being able to say his name or talk about him. I realized there was so much going on when the Truth, Reconciliation, and Reparations Commission (TRC) happened and people finally had the confidence to go on TV and speak about their stories.
As a young person I learned that what you see is not everything that’s happening. There were a lot of things that were happening but we couldn’t see because the media was restricted. The media couldn’t publish certain things. When he left and through the TRC we learned about what happened. A lot of people lost their lives. Some had to flee. Some people lost their mom or dad or some got raped. I think that opened my world. Even though I’m not politically inclined or in the political space, what happened there impacted me. Because we had a political moment where the president didn’t accept the elections, and a lot of people fled and went to Senegal. I stayed like three or four months and the whole country was on lockdown. So that was my experience of what happens when things don’t go as planned when it comes to the electoral process. That was my personal experience.
Greene: Was there news media during that time? Was it all government-controlled or was there any independent news media?
We had some independent news media, but those were from Gambians outside of the country. The media that was inside the country couldn’t publish anything against the government. If you wanted to know what was really happening, you had to go online. At some point, WhatsApp was blocked so we had to move to Telegram and other social media. I also realized that at some point because my dad was in Iraq and I had to download a VPN so I could talk to him and tell him what was happening in the country because my mom and I were there. That’s why when people censor the internet I’m really keen on that aspect because I’ve experienced that.
Greene: What made you start doing the work you’re doing now?
First, when I started doing computer science—I have a computer science background—there was no one there to tell me what to do or how to do it. I had to navigate things for myself or look for people to guide me. I just thought, we don’t have to repeat the same thing for other people. That’s why we started Women TechMakers. We try to guide people and train them. We want employers to focus on skills instead of gender. So we get to train people, we have a lot of book plans and online resources that we share with people. If you want to go into a certain field we try to guide you and send you resources. That’s one of the things we do. Just for people to feel confident in their skills. And everyday people say to me, “Because of this program I was able to get this thing I wanted,” like a job or an event. And that keeps me going. Women get to feel confident in their skills and in the places they work, too. Companies are always looking for diversity and inclusion. Like, “oh I have two female developers.” At the end of the day you can say you have two developers and they’re very good developers. And yeah, they’re women. It’s not like they’re hired because they’re women, it’s because they’re skilled. That’s why I do what I do.
Greene: Is there anything else you wanted to say about freedom of speech or about preserving online open spaces?
I work with a lot of technical people who think freedom of speech is not their issue. But what I keep saying to people is that you think it’s not your issue until you experience it. But freedom of speech and digital rights are everybody’s issues. Because at the end of the day if you don’t have that freedom to speak freely online or if you are not protected online we are all vulnerable. It should be everybody’s responsibility. It should be a collective thing, not just government making policies. But also people need to be aware of what they’re posting online. The words you put out there can make or break someone, so it’s everybody’s business. That’s how I see digital rights and freedom of expression. As a collective responsibility.
Greene: Okay, our last question that we ask everybody. Who is your free speech hero?
My mom’s elder sister. She passed away in 2015, but her name is Mariama Jaw and she was in the political space even during the time when people were not able to speak. She was my hero because I went to political rallies with her and she would say what people were not willing to say. Not just in political spaces, but in general conversation, too. She’s somebody who would tell you the truth no matter what would happen, whether her life was in danger or not. I got so much inspiration from her because a lot of women don’t go into politics or do certain things and they just want to get a husband, but she went against all odds and she was a politician, a mother and sister to a lot of people, to a lot of women in her community.
